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	<title>Comments on: Scenes from a class struggle</title>
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	<description>No moneyman can win her love.</description>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://grabapple.net/entry/312/comment-page-1#comment-4588</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grabapple.net/entry/312#comment-4588</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Megan, it sounds like you should birth in the hospital. Please don&#039;t presume that one story with an undesired outcome is the be-all and end-all of the argument for the rest of us. if you were to frequent the MDC discussion boards or otherwise research birth issues beyond reading ACOG&#039;s guide to pregnancy and their lapdog, WTEWYE, you might come to understand how it is that the hospital environment and routine management of birth creates dysfunction in birth. It is one thing to seek out safe conditions in birth, it is another to pay the price of dysfunction in exchange for that &quot;safety&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The fact is that deaths happen at home and in the hospital, and it is naive to assume that all deaths that happen at home could have been prevented in hospital, and that all deaths that happen in hospital were unpreventable. I know that story you linked to. I also know of another story at MDC that was a hospital death, likely due to routine management of labor. I have lost count of the stories of women and babies who have been hurt and damaged by the medical establishment&#039;s abominable lack of scientific understanding of physiological birth and what facilitates and interferes with its normality. By your process of reasoning (i.e., if a harm is known to have occurred in a certain setting, that setting is inherently unsafe for all women) then I guess I could conclude that no women should ever give birth in a hospital. I don&#039;t conclude that, though, because I understand the flaw in that reasoning, namely that different women have different needs that are best served under different conditions. Even so, there are still no guarantees, no matter what choice one makes.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In terms of numbers, ACOG is being intellectually dishonest. Matched-population studies show that mortality rates between midwife-attended homebirth and hospital birth are pretty much the same, and that complication rates in homebirth are significantly lower. Further, the &lt;em&gt;one&lt;/em&gt; study that has showed a difference in mortality rate was not a matched-population study and had other serious flaws, as the study authors were candid about. It does not inspire trust that ACOG would laud such a study over the many that show homebirth to be a reasonable and even ideal choice for most women. The only way it could possibly make sense would be for there to be some conflict of interest, i.e., the good doctors&#039; need to protect their standard of living.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Regarding unattended homebirth, the same arguments hold. There are benefits and risks to all choices, and the balance of these are going to be different in each situation. There is NO type of choice in which the risks always outweigh the benefits, and no type of choice in which the benefits always outweigh the risks. There are always going to be stories in which a mother would have been better off with an attendant, and stories in which a mother would have been better off without an attendant. The logically most reasonable choice is never going to be obtained by applying generalizations to individuals.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Megan, it sounds like you should birth in the hospital. Please don&#8217;t presume that one story with an undesired outcome is the be-all and end-all of the argument for the rest of us. if you were to frequent the MDC discussion boards or otherwise research birth issues beyond reading ACOG&#8217;s guide to pregnancy and their lapdog, WTEWYE, you might come to understand how it is that the hospital environment and routine management of birth creates dysfunction in birth. It is one thing to seek out safe conditions in birth, it is another to pay the price of dysfunction in exchange for that &#8220;safety&#8221;.</p>
<p>The fact is that deaths happen at home and in the hospital, and it is naive to assume that all deaths that happen at home could have been prevented in hospital, and that all deaths that happen in hospital were unpreventable. I know that story you linked to. I also know of another story at MDC that was a hospital death, likely due to routine management of labor. I have lost count of the stories of women and babies who have been hurt and damaged by the medical establishment&#8217;s abominable lack of scientific understanding of physiological birth and what facilitates and interferes with its normality. By your process of reasoning (i.e., if a harm is known to have occurred in a certain setting, that setting is inherently unsafe for all women) then I guess I could conclude that no women should ever give birth in a hospital. I don&#8217;t conclude that, though, because I understand the flaw in that reasoning, namely that different women have different needs that are best served under different conditions. Even so, there are still no guarantees, no matter what choice one makes.</p>
<p>In terms of numbers, ACOG is being intellectually dishonest. Matched-population studies show that mortality rates between midwife-attended homebirth and hospital birth are pretty much the same, and that complication rates in homebirth are significantly lower. Further, the <em>one</em> study that has showed a difference in mortality rate was not a matched-population study and had other serious flaws, as the study authors were candid about. It does not inspire trust that ACOG would laud such a study over the many that show homebirth to be a reasonable and even ideal choice for most women. The only way it could possibly make sense would be for there to be some conflict of interest, i.e., the good doctors&#8217; need to protect their standard of living.</p>
<p>Regarding unattended homebirth, the same arguments hold. There are benefits and risks to all choices, and the balance of these are going to be different in each situation. There is NO type of choice in which the risks always outweigh the benefits, and no type of choice in which the benefits always outweigh the risks. There are always going to be stories in which a mother would have been better off with an attendant, and stories in which a mother would have been better off without an attendant. The logically most reasonable choice is never going to be obtained by applying generalizations to individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: Kris Bagiu, CPM</title>
		<link>http://grabapple.net/entry/312/comment-page-1#comment-4450</link>
		<dc:creator>Kris Bagiu, CPM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 05:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grabapple.net/entry/312#comment-4450</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Megan, thank you for the link to Mothering.com.  However sad it is, it is only a testimony to the safety (or unsafety as it were) of UNATTENDED home birth.  It is a very sad story and perhaps if the midwife for this woman had been called the outcome might be very different.  We&#039;ll never know.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thank you for the reminder to open our minds.  Perhaps you should do the same!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thank you for the reference to Home Birth Talk, Grabapple! :)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Megan, thank you for the link to Mothering.com.  However sad it is, it is only a testimony to the safety (or unsafety as it were) of UNATTENDED home birth.  It is a very sad story and perhaps if the midwife for this woman had been called the outcome might be very different.  We&#8217;ll never know.</p>
<p>Thank you for the reminder to open our minds.  Perhaps you should do the same!</p>
<p>Thank you for the reference to Home Birth Talk, Grabapple! :)</p>
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		<title>By: emjaybee</title>
		<link>http://grabapple.net/entry/312/comment-page-1#comment-4446</link>
		<dc:creator>emjaybee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grabapple.net/entry/312#comment-4446</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hmm, Megan. Are you saying that no woman ever lost a child during a hospital birth? I am very sorry for this mama&#039;s loss; there are no words that can make up for it. But it could have happened in a hospital; in fact it does, every day. There was no detail in her post as to cause of death--if it was a trapped umbilical cord cutting off the baby&#039;s oxygen, that can happen at a point too late in labor for a c/section to occur--leading to a bad outcome wherever the mama is.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The point is, I don&#039;t know what happened, and neither do you. And studies--good studies--show that overall risk rates for healthy moms attended by midwives are just as good at home as at the hospital.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There are no guarantees; we all gamble every time we give birth. The answer is not being imprisoned in a hospital, but more resources focused on diagnosing and preventing bad outcomes, instead of just relying on a c/section crutch--which doesn&#039;t always work, by the way.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, Megan. Are you saying that no woman ever lost a child during a hospital birth? I am very sorry for this mama&#8217;s loss; there are no words that can make up for it. But it could have happened in a hospital; in fact it does, every day. There was no detail in her post as to cause of death&#8211;if it was a trapped umbilical cord cutting off the baby&#8217;s oxygen, that can happen at a point too late in labor for a c/section to occur&#8211;leading to a bad outcome wherever the mama is.</p>
<p>The point is, I don&#8217;t know what happened, and neither do you. And studies&#8211;good studies&#8211;show that overall risk rates for healthy moms attended by midwives are just as good at home as at the hospital.</p>
<p>There are no guarantees; we all gamble every time we give birth. The answer is not being imprisoned in a hospital, but more resources focused on diagnosing and preventing bad outcomes, instead of just relying on a c/section crutch&#8211;which doesn&#8217;t always work, by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan</title>
		<link>http://grabapple.net/entry/312/comment-page-1#comment-4445</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 14:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grabapple.net/entry/312#comment-4445</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ugh.  Wrong link.  Here:  http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=567839&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ugh.  Wrong link.  Here:  <a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=567839" rel="nofollow">http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=567839</a></p>
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		<title>By: Megan</title>
		<link>http://grabapple.net/entry/312/comment-page-1#comment-4444</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 14:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grabapple.net/entry/312#comment-4444</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Open your mind please.  THIS is why you shouldn&#039;t birth at home:  http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=5678&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Open your mind please.  THIS is why you shouldn&#8217;t birth at home:  <a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=5678" rel="nofollow">http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=5678</a></p>
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